Busting Milk Storage Myths

Have you received mixed messages about milk storage?

Are you worried about mixing cold milk with warm, or if there are rules regarding breastmilk bottles?

You are not alone.  Let’s talk about the research and break it all down.

If you are a new listener, we would love to hear from you.  Please consider leaving us a review on itunes or sending us an email with your suggestions and comments to badassbreastfeedingpodcast@gmail.com

WE HAVE TRANSCRIPTS!!  You can also add your email to our list and have episodes sent right to your inbox!

Things we talked about:

 Lisa’s story [5:46]

Figuring out pumping [16:06]

All of this is lost on anyone who hasn’t experienced it [19:53]

The renewed focus on the power of breastmilk [22:56]

Getting into the research about milk pooling and storing [30:14]

Milk storage and food handling [33:19]

Breastmilk is not dead flesh, it’s a live substance [35:23]

Making things more difficult [45:01]

Can you give the same bottle more than once? [51:54]

NICU babies and decreased bacteria in milk [59:56]

Medicine is slow to change [1:00:33]

Finding Lisa [1:09:52]

*This Episode is sponsored by Ceres Chill 

Links to information we discussed or episodes you should check out!

Research from Dr. Steven Townsend

·         https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6019282/pdf/nihms-974627.pdf

·         https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.accounts.8b00630

Here is a video regarding his research:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMEvacLuxq0&t=3s

Here is his bio:   https://www.vanderbilt.edu/chemistry/faculty/townsend.php

Research from Dr. Lisa Stellwagen about the benefits of pooling milk and mixing temperatures: 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23039396/  

Ceres Chill Blog about warm/chilled breastmilk

https://www.cereschill.com/blogs/news/adding-warm-breastmilk-to-chilled  

 Analysis by Dr. Trill Paullin that is posted in our “Ceres Series” articles: 

 https://www.cereschill.com/blogs/news/pooling-milk-breastmilk-is-not-frail  

Anyone who is interested in donating breastmilk for research purposes please email info@cereschill.com. Even as little as half an ounce is hugely impactful for the independent research being done at Vanderbilt under an NIH grant

Set up your consultation with Dianne

https://badassbreastfeedingpodcast.com/consultations/     

Check out Dianne’s blog here~

https://diannecassidyconsulting.com/milklytheblog/

Don’t Forget!!  Dianne and Abby have started the new parenting podcast!  Check out Revolution Parenting!  

https://www.buzzsprout.com/1755123/8400508

Transcript

dianne (00:00:21):

[inaudible] Welcome to the Badass Breastfeeding podcast. This is Dianne, your lactation consultant,

abby (00:00:26):

And I'm Abby, the badass breastfeeder. And today's episode is brought to you by Ceres chill. Never worry about safely storing your breast milk or formula again. Ceres chill was invented by a mom for moms and offers guaranteed convenience with their double walled stainless steel container. Um, and we'll hear more from our sponsor in a little while, but, um, right now, um, please have to, well, not right now, but when you're done listening to this head to badassbreastfeedingpodcast.com and our sponsors make this podcast possible. So check out our sponsor page. If you need anything, see if you can give them any business. And while you're there, scroll down and enter your email address and get episodes sent straight to your inbox every Monday. And now Dianne has our review of the week

dianne (00:01:11):

And it comes from iTunes. And this is titled breastfeeding on vacation. I went on vacation this week with my husband's extended family in Florida, and I was shocked with the amount of questions I received from everyone, including staff, family members, and other people staying at the resort about breastfeeding. Since I have a 2020 baby I haven't encountered any questions so far in our breastfeeding journey, I was so happy I had been listening to this podcast. It made me feel confident and proud and gave me the tools to educate everyone as to why I am happily still breastfeeding my 13 month old. Thank you, Abby. And Dianne, thank you for sharing the love, because like that's awesome that you're like passing the info along to others. I love that.

abby (00:01:54):

Yeah, I know. And like people are asking questions. I mean, I don't know the nature of the questions, but I have, I have, I can only assume that by the tone of the message, that it was positive questions or just questions, you know, like, oh, What your baby's still breastfeeding kind of thing? Like, how do you do that? Or do they, do they bite you or does it hurt? Do you, you know, people ask you, we're going to ask questions. Like actually I would prefer people to ask questions than to just immediately be like, eh, that's disgusting.

dianne (00:02:24):

I know. And that's, I mean, this is how we are going to, as a society, how we are going to normalize it right. By doing it and explaining it and talking about it, and this is why I'm still doing it. And this is the importance of it. And this is the benefits my baby gets from it after a year. And you know, all those things, I think it's, I love that she was sharing her knowledge. I think it's great. So thank you so much for leaving that for us and for telling us about it. Awesome. And thank you for leaving it on iTunes, but you can either send us emails or you can put a review on iTunes for us. If you want to send an email it's badbreastfeedingpodcast@gmail.com. Kind of easy. And, uh, we'll go from there. That's it?

abby (00:03:10):

Yes. And today What's our episode about today? Asking with genuine curiosity.

dianne (00:03:13):

Today. This is really cool. We have an interview today, which, you know, we don't do it a lot of interviews, but this one is really, really good. It's really important. I think everybody's going to enjoy hearing about it. It's with Lisa, from Ceres chill, and we're talking about the science behind milk storage.

abby (00:03:34):

Oh, cool.

dianne (00:03:35):

So I think, you know, where a lot of there's a lot of controversy in the milk storage world about how can you mix milk? Should you not mix milk? What happens?

abby (00:03:45):

So many rules.

dianne (00:03:46):

So we are breaking that down today and I think it's going to help a lot of people that are out there trying to pump and store and, you know, make sure they're doing the right thing.

abby (00:03:57):

Cool. Let's do it.

dianne (00:03:59):

Yeah, let's hear it. Hi. I am with Lisa today from Ceres Chill, and we are going to talk about all the things. We're going to talk about milk storage. We're going to talk about the science behind milk storage and that awful myth about how you can't combine milk. We get those questions all the time. Abby and I talk about that. You know, we get that question constantly and we're going to talk all about what the truth is behind that. So welcome, Lisa,

Lisa (00:04:33):

Thank you so much. I was telling you, um, just before we hopped on how much I love listening to your podcast and how much it means to me as a mom, that's been through a breastfeeding journey and all the challenges with two kids now, and now hearing about other moms challenges, because I I'm constantly living in this space as the founder Ceres Chill. So I'm really grateful for the space you create for moms. It's, uh, it's safe and refreshing and so honest, and that's what we all need. We're facing these very real challenges as moms learning, how to breastfeed right along with our sweet babies.

dianne (00:05:17):

Oh, thank you so much. That's so nice. We really are proud of the community for sure. Of all of these parents and how much work they do to, to keep things going for their babies. Cause it is not easy. Like you said, this is a very challenging time. Um, so we're going to try to make it a little easier for people today, but first I definitely want to hear more about how you came about with Ceres chill and tell us how that was born.

Lisa (00:05:46):

I think it's a pretty good story and the story that's like, but it's, it's not special. Um, it is definitely, I feel a struggle that every mom has faced, whether they're returning to work or just trying to return to their life before children while still breastfeeding. Um, it's I had had my daughter, um, several years ago, geriatric pregnancy, of course, I just loved that term It's just my favorite

dianne (00:06:19):

Worst Phrase ever. It's the worst.

Lisa (00:06:24):

And I'm like, yes, apparently I'm suffering from a condition geriatric pregnancy and it's getting worse every day. Oh my gosh, it's terrible. I know. So we had my daughter 35, um, four years before my son and had, I would say, unfortunately I would use the nasty term failed to exclusively breastfeed her for my goal of six months. I supplemented from day one, um, for a million reasons. And I think it was because I felt this huge expectation to give her everything she needed. And I didn't know how to do that. I didn't have a lactation consultant. I was in, what's called a baby friendly hospital. And I went to the courses with, I think very well-intentioned lactation consultants. But you know, I was told right out of the gate alongside all of these other moms and dads that are sitting there with these new teeny tiny baby, it's just a few hours old. And we were told, you know, if it's hurting, you're doing it wrong. And you know, just find what works for you. And this is important and you have to do this for your baby. And six months is best, but you know, try for a year. And I think it really overwhelms me. And the second night I was slipped some, uh, formula from the nurse because I was basically pleading with her. And so from that moment on, I never produced enough. And um, I get, I don't think that that's unique to me. I think that a lot of moms worry that they're not able to meet the demands of their baby. You can't see how much they're consuming and you've never done this before. And so you look for help and oftentimes it's supplementing with formula and there's nothing terrible about that, but you know, it's not always necessary. And so that was my first, um, struggle with breastfeeding. And now with my son, I was determined to be successful. I had moved out to Seattle. One of my friends, um, had told me about this amazing saint of a woman. Kate Dunning my lactation consultant. And, um, I reached out to her and she spoke with me before I had my son got a bit of background on what my breastfeeding experience was like. I told her I had a scheduled C-section and she said she would be ready for me. And she would come to my house and um, I thought, oh, okay. All right, well, this time it might work or it might not, but we'll just see. So she came and, um, Dianne, she's just similar to you. Like she's just such an empowering person. And she, she, you know, looked at him and me and, you know, size the whole thing up and realized he had a tongue tie. Um, we ended up getting that fixed. Um, but man, that was, it was excruciating pain when I was initially nursing and she looked at me like the third time she was there, she was like that toe curling pain that you're in. Does that last, the entire time? I'm like, well, yeah, just breathe into the pain. But, um, yeah, so she's the main thing she told me. And I think the main thing I would like for all moms to know is that even an ounce each day does so much for your baby. And you are as important you as a mother are as important in the whole equation as your child. And I still like to have, when I think about it, because Katie told me, she's like, you know, we're going to make this work for you. And what you're doing is really great, but if you can't breastfeed Colin all the time and give them everything he needs then we're not doing this. Like we will figure out what we need to do so that you are okay. And I had never like thought of it that way. I, I always thought this, I have to care for him. I have to give him everything he needs for a year and I have to make it from my body. And if it hurts, it hurts. And when she gave me permission to just like give him an ounce a day and do my best, and that was enough, I made it to two years. So I breastfed him for two years and it was a really big deal for me. And it was because I wasn't so overwhelmed by this, like got it, do everything and be everything to him, no matter how hard it is for me for, you know, this endless amount of weeks, days, months stretching out in front of me. So I went to work and went back to work and I had my pump and I had all my pump parts. I was lucky that I had three months of maternity leave and I went back and I pumped and I had two little, you know, the transparent plastic bottles, the yellow cap sitting on my desk. I'm so proud of myself and look, I did it. And then Dianne, I think, you know where this is going. I was like, where do I put it? I did not plan to safely store breast milk? Um, so I, I was told I needed a cooler, um, by my coworkers or that I could put it in the communal fridge. So I like stuffed it in my suit pockets. It worked with pretty much all men. It was really not okay. First of all, I was told based on the rules about safe breast milk storage to leave my breast milk on my desk for more than four hours. And then just the fact that all these guys are going to be coming into my office to discuss cases and status for court and all of this and be distracted by the fact that I had, um, bodily my own bodily fluid on my desk that I had just produced from, you know, breasts. So I, um, I, my friends told me I needed a cooler. I told them I didn't need another bag. That was the last, last thing any of us need at that point, we all feel like we're barely making it out the door as it is. So I, I invented Ceres Chill. I looked and looked and looked for, you know, the breastmilk thermos thingy that I had in my head. I'm like, this has to exist, like coolers, plastic, like more disgusting, this and another bag. Can't be my only option. And finally, one of my friends, I'm an employment lawyer. She's like, Lisa, I'm buying you a cooler. You have to get over this. Like I don't know what you think you're doing, but you're not going to be able to do it without a cooler, like, oh, save me. So, yep. My first and only cooler was, um, thanks to my good friend, Helen, who, you know, like so many moms had just put her head down and just endured. And I think that's why we were stuck with such crummy, challenging breast milk storage for decades. I mean, Dianne, we're talking about like technology from like the 1970s, like, oh, it's simple freeze packs plastic. And like some vinyl I'm like no way. No. So yeah, that was a very long answer to your, um, great question. But mostly my point is, um, I think the only thing that maybe made me special in that moment is that I was just so darn stubborn and I'm like, no way do we have to put up with this anymore. I think so many of us as moms and certainly me, in many instances, we just put our heads down and we just like suffer through it because we're like, this is about my baby. This is what I need to do. My comfort doesn't really matter in this moment. And it's only for X amount of time. So just, you know, grit your teeth, put your head down and get it done. And that just doesn't have to be the way. And I think that now people like you, companies like Elvie, um, Willow, like, you know, baby Buddha, these more wearable pumps, um, that are more convenient and, you know, quieter. Thank God they're making them all quieter too. Oh my gosh. I know it's just, it's changing. It's changing. You know what it means to be a mom and, and parents who are trying to meet breastfeeding goals, um, we just have more options and more ability to be ourselves and also meet the goals we set for ourselves as, as mothers and fathers and parents to sweet little babies.

dianne (00:15:15):

And I, I think too, like you have a really good point when you talk about, you know, we just are, are supposed to accept that this is what it is. And I feel like that's kind of on the shoulders of, you know, society and the culture that we're in right now, where they're like, okay, you want to go back to work. You want to keep everything the same. You want to go on with a career. You want to be a mom. You want to breastfeed your baby. You want to do all the things, but it can't be easy. You know, it can't be convenient. So we're stuck with, like you said, paraphernalia from the seventies that is for keeping our breast milk for our babies. And we're lugging things back and forth and, you know, making this very, very difficult, but we're doing it, we're doing it because we don't think there's another option. There is, there are other options. Thank goodness.

Lisa (00:16:06):

Yeah. And for moms, like I just, I still, my heart breaks for those women that are, you know, I see because I'm in this space and I know you hear it all the time. The women that their supervisors are giving them 4-15 minute breaks over the course of the day to, um, pump and I, to put these women in a position where they have to advocate for themselves, it's such a shame and it's so intimidating. And I mean, I, I'm lucky that I didn't have to face those sorts of restrictions, but I think I would encourage a lot of women to be generous with themselves and understand what it takes for them to be able to pump and get what they need done in some sort of time. But so I think at first it has to start with us understanding what's required for us to be successful, how much time it actually takes. Like when you experience a let down and then from there, how far you can get, and if you have the right pump, did you get the right flange and all of that stuff understand what you need first. And then the trick, and this is the hard part. And it's just going to take a lot of really awesome women still. Cause we're at the beginning, I think to explain to their supervisors and to help the world understand because you think about it. If you're a woman that's never had a child, or you're a woman that had a child, but a very different experience or you're a guy, how could you possibly know? Like we don't even know ourselves how long it takes for us to pump what we need to pump. And that changes too. And I'm, you know, a year out from my breastfeeding and pumping, and I don't remember how long it took to get the seven ounces that I needed, you know, from the beginning. So yeah, I think that, um, there's still a lot of education that has to happen. And unfortunately, it's, it's too often on new moms who are all already dealing with so much to help the people who are in a position to help them to make it happen. And I think that maybe some of these women, you know, listening to your podcast and learning what's required for themselves are then better equipped to go to their supervisors and say, I know I have these four 15 minute breaks, but I can't make that work. And it's not because I'm being lazy or I'm a complainer it's because this is what it takes to extract milk from my body. And I am away from my baby and not being able to nurse, it takes five minutes before I even start to, you know, extract milk. And so here we go, like I need 20 minutes or let's figure out a different way to divide it up or schedule it. So that was a bit of a tangent to Dianne, but that's something that I think about a lot, the challenges that women face that are doing shift work or, you know, or in an hourly position, it's just such a challenge.

dianne (00:19:24):

It is. I had a, um, I have a family that I've worked closely with for the last couple of years. And it's, it's so funny because she talked about just the same thing. When she went back to work, one of her coworkers said, can't you just pump in the morning and get what you need for the baby. And she was like, no, I can't do that. Like, if, if that's as if that, if it were that easy, then yes, that's what I would do. But I can't do that. We don't really consider the fact that this is completely lost on anybody who's never experienced it completely lost, you know, they don't, they don't know what is involved, just like new, new parents don't know what is involved when they start it. So how should we expect that our coworkers are going to understand what we're going through? If we don't explain it to him, this is what I need. I need more time. I need more space. I need more, yeah. Fill in the blank. Anything when you're coming back from maternity leave. Right.

Lisa (00:20:26):

Right. Yeah. And like you said, the space is so important and we're seeing so many changes there, which is so great. Um, I've been in contact. We were able to donate a ton of chillers to, uh, um, a Naval base.

dianne (00:20:41):

I saw that. I love it. I love that.

Lisa (00:20:44):

She did such a great job. She is spouse of one of the men station there in Hawaii. And she was so proud and yeah, if you have a chance, like it's on our Instagram and we also have a blog post about it on the website, but yeah. She, and all those guys were so happy that she was able to educate them about what was needed and create that space. They had not been putting these women in a broom closet because they're mean, or cruel or thoughtless. They're just dealing with a bunch of other stuff and they didn't even, it didn't register to them how important the space was. And I think, you know, women that are being forced to kind of pump out in the open or in miserable spaces. That's another thing, you know, to communicate to your supervisor, say, I'm not asking for a couch because I want, you know, a cush place to read magazines. It's because I'm trying to fit my pumping into this time and being uncomfortable or feeling like I don't have any privacy and somebody gonna walk into me, it's kinda hard to, you know, perform so to speak. Like, you know, can you imagine like trying to do some major bodily thing, but feel like you're on display or that you don't, you're not safe or you don't have any, you know, peace. It's, it would be a challenge. I think people just who've never experienced it. Don't they, they just don't see that piece. And so again, it's unfortunately on moms to, um, to well, and parents, you know, these guys were dads too, and it opened their eyes and so slowly but surely we're changing the world,

dianne (00:22:31):

we're getting there. we're slowly but surely getting there.

Lisa (00:22:35):

Yeah. And that's the research piece. I know that you were very complimentary of that aspect of Ceres Chill, and I am really proud of that. And it's just so great to be part of this massive movement in breast milk research and really as many terrible things as have come out of COVID one of the great things is the renewed focus on the power of breast milk and what humans are capable of creating for their babies and how we need to really respect that. Honor it and move away from the frailty consideration, which was imposed, I think by traditional medicine for so many years, and now acknowledge all of the incredible properties of breast milk and how strong it is, how resilient it is and how we don't need to, you know, care for it with these kid gloves. And so, yeah, I'm really, I'm really excited that we're able to bring a lot of that research together. Uh, Dr. Stellwagen is a real force in this space as is Dr. Townsend. And he is doing research around adding warm milk to chilled and how that doesn't increase bacteria. And that certainly something that women can do without, um, you know, necessarily having to worry about it. He he's getting as much research together as possible as many donors as possible. So if moms want to donate, um, I know he's still working on getting all the pieces in place and making sure there's privacy, but the moms can reach out to me or to Dr. Townsend at Vanderbilt university directly. And reaching out to me is as easy as emailing me. I'm at lisa@cereschill.com and that's, you know, C E R E S C H I L L.com. But yeah, so anyway, it's a very, it's a very great and interesting time as far as breast milk research goes. And I don't know if you have any like exciting stuff that you've seen lately, but I've, um, I've enjoyed watching, uh, Katie Heinz Ted talk that was years ago, but she talks about how there's more, uh, scientific articles in the library of Congress about erectile dysfunction by like a factor of five or something crazy than about breast milk research. She's like, I'm not saying it's not important. I mean, it's important. She's like, can we at least agree that breast milk is maybe as important, possibly more important. So my gosh, great one to check out for sure.

abby (00:25:21):

We will Be right back with Lisa after a word from our sponsor. Today's episode is brought to you by Ceres chill, never worry about safely storing your breast milk again. Ceres Chill was invented by a mom for moms and offers guaranteed convenience with their double walled stainless steel container. A little bit of water and ice is all you need to keep your breastmilk safe for 20 hours, no more lugging around chunky coolers and dozens of containers. These sustainable bottles finally provide you with a safe long-term solution that you can easily keep on your nightstand, at your desk, in the diaper bag or tucked in your carry on luggage. Nothing else in the world allows moms to easily and safely store up to 24 ounces of breast milk or formula for over 20 hours. The chillers are compatible with most major pumps, so you can pump and double pump all day into one sleek container. Plus it doubles as a portable bottle warmer. One chiller filled with hot water can warm up to three bottles over eight hours, need more bottles, just add hot water to the outer chamber and go. It's dishwasher, safe airport friendly and lasts a lifetime. Use it for wine, coffee, or any of your favorite beverages when you're done breastfeeding. I even use it to bring hot dogs to the park because it's the only container I've used that actually keeps things hot for hours. No more worries. And so much more freedom. This is breast milk storage, like you've never seen before. Head to cereschill.com. That's C E R E S C H I L l.com or check them out at cereschill on Instagram for more details and use code badass breastfeeders 25 for 25% off your purchase. That's badass breastfeeders 25 for 25% off. And You can find all of our sponsors, uh, and their promo codes on badassbreastfeedingpodcast.com. Also a badassbreastfeedingpodcast.com. You'll find all of our other episodes, our breastfeeding resources and information about scheduling your very own online one-on-one lactation consultation with Dianne. And now back to Lisa from Ceres Chill.

dianne (00:27:43):

So let's get into a little bit of that research, the whole, the whole process of human milk and pooling human milk. And how did this concept get out into the world of breast milk is so delicate that we have to be really careful of how we store it and what we do with it once it is outside of our body. It's like glass, you know, it's outside of our body, it's going to break. As soon as it hits the air, it's just, we have to be so cautious of it. And this is not the truth. This is not accurate information, but we go into it. And I remember even when I was first becoming a lactation consultant and you know, it's quite a process and I was, you know, started as a peer counselor and got my training as a CLC and, you know, kind of coming up. And this was 15 ish, maybe a little bit more years ago. And I remember learning that you could not shake, or you should not. I shouldn't say could not. You should not shake human milk because you're going to break up the long chain, fatty acids that are in that milk. And that is detrimental. So you should not be shaking it. And then a few years later it came out. People were like, that's not real. Like, that's not a thing. Like just shake it up and serve it away. Like that is not a thing. So like where, where did this come from? And now all this research, which is fantastic. And I'll admit, I always, I mean, I knew nothing about anything. When I had my kids, I knew nothing about breastfeeding. Breastfeeding came along for me. Like I did nurse them, but the research part of it, the education part of breastfeeding came for me after my kids were born. And I remember just like putting the milk together because I was like, well, why wouldn't you do that? Like, why, why couldn't I? And this was really like, Google was just kind of becoming a thing. So I didn't have time to figure out how to look anything up, let alone, you know, read it all because I was trying to take care of these babies, but I had no idea and I just mixed it together and just went with it and nobody died. Like my kids are fine. They, you know, nothing happened to them. But then it came, people are very, very worried about what will happen if their milk touches each other. If it's been pumped at two separate times, what can happen? Like nothing, nothing will happen to it

Lisa (00:30:15):

I hate to break it to you nothing, nothing good, bad or interesting is going to happen.

dianne (00:30:23):

And it is what it is. Human milk is way more in-destructive than we give it credit for. And it's fine, but let's get into some of this cause it's so interesting. And I feel like that's kind of where you settled into when you got really into that milk storage was because you had to know, okay, we can pool this milk together because the concept behind Ceres behind the chiller is that you can pump into that thing all day. How easy is that?

Lisa (00:30:56):

Yep. Yeah, no. And it's, I would say that I was called to this work. I have never said anything like that. I, I loved being a prosecutor and assistant district attorney when I was in Philadelphia. And I really felt like I helped a lot of victims of crime and also, you know, the people who were accused of crimes as well, um, in a lot of different ways. And that certainly was a calling, but even to a much greater extent, seeing the amount of misinformation out there and the burdens we place on moms and the additional concern, like you said, you know, you've mixed your milk and, um, it wasn't the end of the world. Nobody died. And yet I'm sure there was, once you learn that there's always this nagging feeling in the back of your head, like, am I being too lazy for my kids? Am I not considering their needs enough? Am I putting my needs before them, by not being careful enough with, with this milk? And it's like, that's the last thing moms need right now when they are facing such epic challenges and breastfeeding is already so challenging for so many of us, why are we layering on baseless concerns and additional burdens when that is the absolute, last thing we should be doing rather than encouraging parents and telling them how incredibly powerful and resilient their breast milk is and what they're capable of doing, we're telling them, be careful, it's fragile, don't wreck it. Don't poison your child. You know, go take these extra steps. If you love them. If you want to get to, you know, three months, six months a year, you better do it right. And here is the following guidelines. And it's like, you know, I feel like it's like in the cartoons where they unfurled the tablet and it just like spills down the stairs. And it's like, wow, I had no idea that I was going to need to memorize all of these different, like hours, days, weeks, months, temperatures, you know, conditions, um, materials. I mean, it's just, it's so much. And the only explanation I've been able to get from the powers that be is that this comes from food handling that, um, there has been, I have not been able to find a single sliver of research involving breast milk that shows an increase of bacteria. When you add warm milk to chilled. Just, I can't find it. You know, when you're, when you're trying to prove a negative, when you're looking for the thing to prove the, like the known truth, and there is no thing out there it's so hard. And I get that, I've gone out on a limb. I have been accused of trying to kill babies many times or, um, you know, saying that it's safe and I'm, I'm very, it hurt me a lot at first because I thought, no, I'm just trying to give information. And I want you to make a decision based on the information. Not, I'm not telling you how to parent, I'm not telling you I'm better. I'm just telling you what I know so that you can then decide. Um, but for some reason, people really, I think there's a sense of security that comes with rules. And so there's been resistance to change rules because there's just risks, right? Like it's been fine for that. From what I can see this recommendation goes back to, um, protocol eight by the, um, the academy of pediatric medicine. Uh, and from what I can see, and I can't see back farther than this, cause I don't have access to the library of Congress, but it goes back like 25 years about, um, and it's related to food storage and Dianne, what I always say. And I think you'll agree is breast milk is not dead flesh. It is live. It is, it has really incredible living properties to it. And you've said before, that is, um, I think the word you used was it's, um, it's indestructible. What's incredible about it is that it's actually destructive in the best ways that it goes after the bad stuff to save our children from the bad stuff, using its incredible power and live forces for good. And so it does have, you know, these incredible antibacterial qualities too. It goes after the bad bacteria to leave space for all of the good bacteria that our babies need. And so, yeah, it's, um, I'm pretty sure it goes back to some very traditional, um, doctor and food handling practices from, you know, a couple decades ago or more where you take a chicken breast out of the first it kill the chicken, you've got the dead piece of flesh and then you put it, I mean, just not to be graphic, but you slap it on the counter, um, and leave it there for a few minutes and then you put it in the fridge and then you're like, well, I'm not going to eat it soon enough. And you put it in the freezer and then you put it out on the counter to thaw it, cause you think you might have time to make, you know, chicken that night, but as it turns out, you don't have time. So you put it back in the fridge and somebody looks at that chicken and gives it a smell. And they're like, holy smokes, its rotting. Like there is a lot of bacteria here and I'm pretty sure it was all the temperature changes not to mention the length of time, but it's like, what's so frustrating is breast milk has nothing to do with that piece of chicken structures for how you safely feed someone chicken have been attributed to breast milk and women have been told, you must care for your breast milk like we care for these other food items. And maybe some of those make sense. Many of them don't for the reasons you and I have talked about and no... Breast milk is a living thing until we kill it. But which is, you know, freezing it at or pasteurizing it or whatever else, but when a woman or person expresses breast milk and it is there, it is, it is a living thing that is behaving like no other food that exists in the world. It is remarkable. It is, it is something else entirely. And so while some food handling rules may apply to breast milk, fine, let's base that on research. Let's look at breast milk in those conditions and let's see what breast milk does if we're thinking of applying those rules or telling women, they have to behave in this way, let's look at breast milk. Don't tell me what I have to do based on your hunk of chicken that is not relevant. And it's actually harmful. And I am so done. So yeah, even if it ends up, you know, the work that Dr Townsend's doing and these incredible people who are, um, researching, improving how powerful breast milk is, even if it ends up proving that you don't need to chill your breast milk at all and Ceres Chill is, um, a beautiful thermos and nothing more than so be it. I, I, my new life's work is to eliminate as many barriers, um, to parents in reaching their breastfeeding goals as they returned to their lives as possible. So that's, that's how I feel about that.

dianne (00:39:26):

I like to tell parents, especially when I'm doing breastfeeding classes, prenatally, even though I feel like, you know, there's so much information in my brain and I'm like spewing so much information at these parents that are probably ingesting, you know, like not even a quarter of what I'm talking about, because it's just so much information. There's so much to it. But I like to try to tell parents research has shown that if you leave breast milk sitting on the counter, it actually has less bacteria in it than it did when it was pumped, because it does kill the bacteria as it's sitting. And I think that's a very powerful thing, you know, to kind of a very powerful visual that if you pump breast milk, you sit it on the counter. They they looked at it. They, you know, did their research on it. After it sat for an hour or two hours, however long it was. And that showed that it actually have less bacteria in it and has live white blood cells that kills that bacteria. Like you said, this is a live substance. This is not something that is dead. It's not a piece of flesh. It's live breast milk, human milk that needs to be treated differently. And it's not as fragile as everybody thinks it is. And we can mix the milk. We, there is research out there now, for some reason, it's not hitting social media. You don't see it anywhere. You know, Facebook and the Facebook mom groups are certainly alive and well with everybody talking about how you can't mix milk, but you can, and research tells us now that pooling milk mixing milk is okay to do. That it is not harmful in any way, shape or form. And we can cut that corner to make things a little bit easier for, for us, right? Like what's wrong with making things a little bit easier sometimes,

Lisa (00:41:26):

Right? Nothing wrong and everything, right. Especially when moms are moms and dads, I say moms a lot because I'm speaking from, you know, where I sit and stand. But, um, yeah. I mean, for parents who are trying to do at all with an infant and no sleep and all the other challenges they're facing, there's everything wrong and nothing right about adding even the slightest burden to those parents. And I think a lot of people who haven't been through it or have a little distance from it, their attitude is, well, what's the big deal. What's the big deal? Chill it first. And it's like, that is another bottle to wash. That is. And when I've had friends, mom, friends of mine and women who've reached out to me, who've thrown away countless ounces. Cause they're like, well, is it really worth keeping it and chilling it? If it was only an ounce, like I don't produce a lot. And I mean, yes, yes. If you don't produce a lot, even, even more reason that you should not feel bad about it or that it's not enough to go to the trouble or that it's one more thing you have to do. It's just so aggravating that our hesitance to take a hard look at how amazing milk is creates these additional, uh, hurdles for parents to overcome. And it's so funny. I, I heard you say, you know, everyone says it does feel like everyone is saying that we can't do this, but it's really everyone in the United States. You talk to people in other countries, you talk to moms and other countries. I have a friend over in the UK and I was speaking to her about this rule, trying to get her take on, you know, how best to provide moms with the information without them feeling like I'm attacking their understanding of the world and the safety of their child. And she was so confused. It took us forever to get through the conversation. Cause she's like, I'm sorry, what are you talking about? So, you know, adding more milk to chilled is dangerous. And she said warm too, to chill what? And I'm like breast milk. She's like adding them together. She never heard that there was a danger in it. And Dr. Townsend has talked about how women in countries that are not nearly as privileged as the United States and don't have access to refrigeration like we do, will leave milk out for hours and approaching days. I just want to preface this by saying, I'm not telling any of your listeners to do this. I don't have the research to back it up yet, but, um, they leave their milk out and you know what, no one dies. They feed it to their babies. It's perfectly safe because what our bodies are creating is amazing. And people have been functioning and feeding their babies for a long time without refrigerators. And somehow we've all made it this far as a species.

dianne (00:44:46):

Yes. We talk about that a lot on the podcast, how we have come this far as a species breastfeeding. And for some reason it gets harder every year. Like it's really, we make this so much more difficult than it needs to be. And it's just mind boggling to me sometimes. I'm like why? And I think like, as you were talking, I'm thinking about the whole concept of like washing pump parts, right? Like how we, I know personally me and I know a lot of other lactation consultants will also tell working parents, save yourself a little time, take the pump parts, put them in a baggie, put them in a bowl, put them in something, stick them in the refrigerator, wash them once at the end of the day, don't wash in between. It's not necessary. It's breast milk. It's not causing any problem. It's not, I read this on. There was a Facebook group one time where there was this huge battle going on in the Facebook group about how horrible that was to do and how you're risking bacteria, giving your child bacteria. How could you possibly do that? This is horrible. And it's like, oh my gosh.

Lisa (00:46:01):

Yeah. Yeah. The, the amount of vitriol and anger and, um, passion around these rules is, is really surprising to me. And I think it's, it's just, I think it's a lot of mom shaming that continues. And uh, some, some people feel that they are because they follow these rules They are good moms and have been good moms. And maybe they have come under attack for other things that they've done, whether it's screen time or whatever, we're all doing to survive particularly now. But to feel like they wash their pump parts every time, or they always chilled their milk before combining they followed the rules, they weren't too lazy to provide for their child and they did it. Right. And these women or these companies, or these experts that are trying to tell you otherwise, they're the bad guys. They're the ones that are, you know, polluting the world with their misinformation and you could kill your child unless you take these extra steps and you follow the rules. That's all I can think because the level of rage that I have experienced and the way that I felt attacked was so remarkable to me. And I really was quite low about it for a while and it really hurt. And now I had spoken to people like Dr. Townsend, Dr. Sellwagen, people like you. I mean, just the fact that this is the badass breastfeeding podcast, and I'm speaking to you now. I can't tell you how proud I am. And if I teach things for a single mom, that was so scared to put that question out there in the world, because of the response that you say you're seeing, I've experienced well heck, then it's all been worth it, right? Like I don't care if anybody buys a single Ceres Chill. So if that's been my impact, great, because I think that we, um, women seem to do it more than men. And I also hate to say that, but if some guy was talking about, you know, wearing tighty whities or trying to like, you know, have a kid, I just can't imagine that there would be in a, in a forum, a whole bunch of guys saying, do you know that you're risking the future of your family by wearing that kind of underwear? Like you selfish son of a gun! It just wouldn't happen. Yet women and breastmilk and like choices we make about, you know, whether to get an epidural, like all of it. I'm like, why are we so hard on each other? And these women step in and act like they're standing between you and the horrible decisions that you're making for your child. And it's like, gosh, she's just combining two different temperatures of milk. And by the way, her breast milk is fricking amazing. When do we just take a moment to acknowledge that

dianne (00:49:11):

It's, it's just mind blowing, honestly, it is. And there's sometimes I'll read things and I'll be like, wow, this is so, like you said, like, people are so passionate about their, about their choices that it's like, am I wrong? Is the research wrong? You know, because it's, I really, I really do go by what that research tells us. And when people say the opposite and they're so defiant about it, it's like, wow, but that's not accurate. Maybe that's okay for you, but not everybody else has to follow that rule.

Lisa (00:49:45):

Right. Right. It's like the old pump and dump rule. I mean, there's thoughts about moms, you know, poisoning their babies with whatever they're putting in their bodies. But that, I mean, you imagine the thousands of gallons that were lost because some mom had the audacity to go out on a date with her husband or head to a bachelorette party. And she drank a couple margaritas and man, she had to get that poison out. It's just down the drain. That was her penance.

dianne (00:50:17):

That is a myth that will never die. And I, I feel like that is kind of like that little conversation we were having before I hit record, I should have hit record for the whole conversation. But what it, what you were saying about how we, our milk is like constantly being, okay, it's not good enough right now. We're constantly being told, if you do this, it's not good enough. Like, it can't be good enough. Your milk can't be good enough. And that's not, that's not the truth. Our milk is amazing. And there is no reason why we should believe that something's wrong with it. Whether we pool milk together, whether we have a drink, whether we let a bottle sit out that milk is still good. There's nothing wrong with it. But we're told that there is. Its Somehow not good enough.

Lisa (00:51:11):

It's really hard to stomach. It is. It is. I'm wondering Dianne, I haven't because I've been so, um, there's, there's so much research that's happening. And I've been looking specifically at the antimicrobial properties, but I haven't seen this sort of research. I'd love to know. And maybe you've talked about it on one of your podcasts that I've missed. Do we know enough about leaving bottles? How long we have after, you know, the baby's toxic saliva has touched very fragile breast milk, um, that, that chemical interaction, how long before it explodes and kills the entire family? Or when we have to throw it out.

dianne (00:51:54):

You know, it's so funny that you should bring that up because I was going to mention that next, because that is something that comes up all the time. Well, what if the baby doesn't finish the bottle? Do you give it to him the next feed? You can leave it sitting out for a couple hours, give it to them. The next feed. Should I put it in their fridge refrigerator? Should I reheat it? Should I not reheat it? Should it be reheated? What happens with the reheating process? What happens if I let it sit? What happens if this? And I'm like, oh my goodness. Like I, things that would never even consider this, just like, it's just your milk. If he doesn't finish it, just give it to him the next feed you make a four ounce bottle of breast milk. You have a four ounce bottle. The babysitter gives him two ounces. Give him the two ounces the next feed. There's no, we can't do that daycare centers in the United, at least where I am in New York state daycare centers will not give milk if it wasn't finished at the first feeding. And I, I really, when I have parents that are planning to send their child to a facilitated daycare, I always warn them of that and say, you need to be very, very cautious of how much milk you're sending, because they will dump it. Yeah. And you don't want that to happen. And if it's, if your child is staying with a friend or a babysitter at home, or a grandparent who is used to formula feeding, yes. That formula needs to be thrown away. If it's breast milk, it absolutely does not. And I have had grandparent after grandparent or babysitter after babysitter, throwing milk away, throwing it away, throwing it away because the baby didn't finish it. And then those parents contacting me and saying, how do I increase my supply? I can't leave enough milk. Because they're throwing half of it away.

Lisa (00:53:28):

Right. Right. Or I, we were talking about pace feeding earlier, or they're trying to force that baby to drink the rest of the bottle because they don't want to throw it away, but they're going to have to, because again, it becomes this like radio active thing in your house, but, um, you know, then forcing the baby to eat it. And then that baby is getting used to You, you know, consuming so much more feedings and you know, a bottle the way it's delivered with a bottle rather than the natural rhythm of nursing. And so these poor women are coming back from long work days and they're trying to nurse and the kid's like, man, I want my six to eight ounces from that bottle over there and I'm going to drink it all. Cause that's how I've been trained all day.

dianne (00:54:15):

It's Just really, really discouraging, you know, and to have to put all of this into play, to tell, I can't imagine being in a position where I would have to figure out going back to work after maternity leave, which we know in the United States is never long enough. Trying to figure out, going back to work, leaving your baby with somebody, having to have enough milk to give that baby, having to have a place to store that milk while you're at work, knowing exactly what temperature that milk should be. So you could tell the babysitter and how it can't be brought down to this temperature. You can't leave it out. And there's all these rules and regulations that go along with it. And if any of those things happen, you have to throw that milk away. And I have to figure out how to get enough milk for the next day, right? How completely overwhelming is that for our parents that are returning to work or for a parents who just want to be able to leave a bottle so that they can go out to that bachelorette party or they can go out grocery shopping, or they can go out for lunch with girlfriends or whoever, and they can just leave a bottle and say, just feed it to the baby. When you feel it, when the baby's ready, there's no regulations, there's no rules take, take the milk out of the refrigerator and put it in a bottle, give it to the baby. Well, like what? That's not complicated. Like it's like, no, it doesn't have to be complicated. It does not have to be complicated. We are making this way more complicated than it needs to be. And the fact that they're doing research about it, I mean, there's a lot of They're spending research money and research dollars on whether or not you can put your milk together.

Lisa (00:55:59):

I know, I know. And that's, that's the heartbreaking thing. And yet, without that research, nobody trusts it because it's been it's, we're all indoctrinated to believe that our breast milk is frail and that without handling it in this very, very specific, um, and impossible way, it will, will kill our babies, who we love so much. And so only through significant clinical trials can we confirm that breast milk won't poison our babies.

dianne (00:56:32):

Even though We've been doing this as a society for a million years,

Lisa (00:56:37):

The last 25 with all the rules. Those are the important years.

dianne (00:56:41):

Oh my gosh. It is just, it is really, it's just, it's just really complicated and it doesn't need to be this complicated. And now when you first started doing your research, when you started Ceres, did you like have that revelation of like, why is this, why are we making this so hard? Like this is insanity. How, how difficult this is for everybody?

Lisa (00:57:11):

I think I was lucky in that I came to pregnancy later in life and I had I'd run political campaigns for years. And, um, I was a lawyer and none of those things are really important except I had a lot of life experience and a lot of research experience and questioning and questioning authority experience, I guess you would say. And so I loved Emily Oster's book Expecting Better. I don't know if you've read it. I mean, I'm told she has a follow up book about, um, about parenting as well, but her, her book Expecting Better. It was all about how she has a background in finance, I think, and how upset she was to have all of these rules thrown at her. Um, all of these concepts about infertility, how you get pregnant. Then once you have a pregnancy, how you don't lose that, that baby that's in your body that you could lose at any given time. And then, you know, how you give birth to that baby without killing that baby, without failing that baby, that you've worked so hard to carefully carry for those, you know, many months and for the years that you tried to get pregnant. And so I think that was a really important place to come from when I felt I failed my daughter and then I had the benefit of my incredible lactation consultant. And then when I was trying to go back to work, looking at it and saying, this just isn't right, like this just isn't fair. Coolers, Really? Why? Like I, I mean, I use a cooler for tailgates and, you know, fishing with my dad as a kid to keep the worms cool with the fish. But like, there's gotta be something better for breast milk. And yet there wasn't. And so then I was coming from that place of, I'm not putting up with this garbage, there is something better and I will bring it into being because all moms deserve that choice. Then when I was coming up against the research, which I wasn't even aware of because my lactation consultant and my pediatrician were both like, oh yeah, people say that, but we don't really do that. So why are people saying it? So yeah. So then I thought, well, if I'm not killing my baby and I'm doing this, there must be something out there. And I found Dr. Sellwagen's study, which is from 2013 and it's regarding NICU babies and how those, the benefits that those moms and those babies reaped from pooling milk and how there was no increase in bacteria. And I thought, geez, why isn't this out there? And, you know, I was told, I'm not gonna quote people directly. Um, because I know this is such an impassioned space and I don't want to get anyone in trouble, you know, for trying to kill babies. Like I'm always trying to do, but that medicine is just slow to change that doctors often learn things like this by following more senior doctors around and hearing it said and then saying it again. And then a new generation of doctors learns the same way. And then once it gets established over decades and generations, well then it's just scripture. And to change it is to take a huge risk and no one wants to take that risk. And especially when I'm going to say it, Dianne, when it doesn't matter to you, when it has no impact on your life and what you're trying to accomplish, when it seems like some small thing that is a burden on someone that is somewhat remote from you all, then who the hell cares? Why am I going to stick my neck out on a change to what we know to be a safe way when saying the opposite might also be just as safe, but it's gonna help with some small what you perceive as some small inconvenience for some person out there that you don't even really know, or you only see every once in a while, like why would you change? And the answer is because it's fricking hard. And if you add one more thing to that for a woman's plate, shame on you, like fix it, it's broken fix, you broke it. You old guy.

dianne (01:02:07):

It is it's maddening. When you hear that, like, as somebody who likes to keep up on recent research and who didn't follow some, you know, old lactation consultant around who was passing off bad information, I get enraged with that bad information. That's being spewed all the time. And the other thing I was actually talking to another professional about this earlier today is I feel like even when we know better, right? Even when we know better, if a medical provider tells us something different, we believe it because we look to them for that guidance. It's very, very powerful.

Lisa (01:02:55):

It's a, it's a sense of security. Um, and I understand that it fills a purpose and sometimes it can certainly be a force for good. But when, as we've been talking about, you're adding another thing to that already keeping burden on parents, then that's when it's not okay. And you've got to draw the line and you got to walk this stuff back because it's just time it's overdue.

dianne (01:03:24):

There was, um, a couple of years ago, a mom that I was working with who called me up frantic, because she realized that her freezer had stopped working. Okay. How many times have we heard that story? Like, yeah. Freezer had stopped working and she had like 500 ounces of breast milk in there. And of course her husband said, oh my God, what about the meat? And she goes, who cares about meat my breast milk is in here. And she's like, do I have to toss it? And we talked about it. Is it cold? Is it, you know, like how, how long has it been? How long do you think it's been? Um, I looked and looked and looked and looked for the research behind it. I could find absolutely nothing that said there was anything wrong with that milk if you refreeze it.

Lisa (01:04:17):

Right. But could you find anything that said it was safe? That's the tricky part, right?

dianne (01:04:22):

It was just, it was so crazy. And I'm like looking at all the places and I'm looking at, for all the research that I would normally all the places that I would normally look for for research about this, there was absolutely nothing that said, you cannot refreeze this. And I happened to work in the same office as her pediatrician at the time. And I ran it by her who was also a breastfeeding mother. And she was like, you, if you think it's fine for her to refreeze that milk, I am onboard with it. Because if you can't find any research on it, if there's, if it's still cold, I would say, go right ahead and refreeze it. But there is how many people have thrown breast milk away that they have defrosted. And just because they were told without any background, without any basis, without any research, you can not refreeze that milk.

Lisa (01:05:09):

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and what I didn't hear in there, Dianne, I'm very curious. Why didn't you ask them to, um, to assess the meat, smell the meat, figure out if the meat's okay. And then make a decision about her breastmilk.

dianne (01:05:22):

Oh my gosh.

Lisa (01:05:27):

Yeah. That hamburger look funny. Does it smell bad? Then everything is a total loss.

dianne (01:05:33):

Everything is, let's Just go by that because that's all we care about is whether or not that steak made it through the process. I just can't. No way I was going to tell that mother to throw away 500 bags of breast milk, especially When it was, you know, it's still cold. It was Still partially like had a little bit of, you know, freezer in it. It was still, it was it. If she'd said it's warm, it's probably been days. I haven't opened the fridge. I haven't opened the freezer in a week and everything's warm. Then I'd be like, Hmm.

Lisa (01:06:09):

Also Dianne, I'm very, I'm very curious. Did the entire town blow up that this woman lived in? She froze that breast milk and fed it. I feel like there needs to be the follow-up like, did everyone live,

dianne (01:06:22):

Everyone lived. Her child is growing and thriving and miraculous and should be in some kind of like, I don't know, medical Atlas somewhere or something. It's just what we put ourselves through is really, really unfortunate. When all we need to do is support the process and trust the process, trust the process. It works. Your body's not going to produce this milk that is not okay for the baby that you produced,

Lisa (01:06:59):

Right. The ways in which milk is tailored to your baby is just so mind-blowing too. So it's just, I mean, we're only beginning to understand how incredible our milk is and what it's doing for our children. And I know science is getting closer on formula to duplicating a lot of those aspects. And certainly as a mom that supplemented, uh, I do not want any moms to come away from this feeling shame for not providing their child with every ounce of breast milk that they needed for years and years. But, um, yeah, I, I really I'm grateful for the research. Cause I think we're understanding a lot more about what we're doing for babies, the value, how to try to create that for women who cannot breastfeed for whatever reason or parents who cannot breastfeed or chest feed for whatever reason. But I think it goes a long way to encouraging mothers, to know how powerful they are and what they're creating in any small way, what it's doing for their child. And when we put these barriers up or spread this misinformation or say anything close to breast milk is frail and not resilient. We are stealing some piece of power from the parents that are doing their very best. And that kills me and I won't stand for it. And that's why I love you guys. You don't either.

dianne (01:08:43):

We don't. No, we don't like that one bit and we'll continue to fight for that for sure.

Lisa (01:08:49):

Thank God. Thank goodness. And I'm like, Nope, God is here.

dianne (01:08:57):

Thank you so much for talking with me today about this. I appreciate it so much. It is really good to hear your story and to hear like where you, where you are with it, know that they, I have like-minded people that are with me in this battle, as it is hard.

Lisa (01:09:12):

We're getting there. Dianne, you, you and Abby really have created something special and it's, it's, it's getting us, uh, leaps and bounds forward every day. And the more moms that hear this information and bring it into the world, whether it's, you know, more understanding around pump breaks or whether or not they can feed their bottle, their baby, those last couple of ounces, it's, it seems small, but it's incrementally huge, you know that, and I'm just glad that you let me be a part of it, even for this small little bit of time.

dianne (01:09:49):

Well, how does everybody find you in and Ceres chill?

Lisa (01:09:52):

Okay. So, um, the science is all there for anyone who's interested. The blog is pretty cool. We try to do, um, fun things and also kind of heavy things like this, but the website is cereschill.com and it's the goddess Ceres. Who's the goddess of maternal relationships and breastfeeding and the harvest and all good things.

dianne (01:10:16):

I love that.

Lisa (01:10:17):

C for cat E for Edward R for Robert E for Edward S for Sam and chill, like be cool. And, um, yeah, if you go there, you can find a lot of information and any moms that are interested in the research or taking part in Dr. Townsend's exciting work, uh, can reach out to me at lisa@cereschill.com. So yeah, any questions? I welcome them. I'll do my very best to answer. My husband is deployed right now in the middle east, and I'm a single mom with two little kids and I also work full time. So if I don't get to you, I am sorry. I'm going to put that out there in the world right now. I am truly sorry, but I am going to try. And if it's urgent, you can always call the phone number and I will get to it because this is important. And the fact that I haven't responded is more a sign of how crazy my mom life is, then how much these moms mean to me. This is crazy. You get it,

dianne (01:11:18):

Got I get it. And I think we all get it. You know, it's, it's hard to do it all. And I will link all of those in the show notes too. So everybody has it. And thank you so so much. And we're so proud to have you as a sponsor and so happy to be able to talk to you about this stuff. This has been great. Thank you so much.

Lisa (01:11:36):

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you guys. It's just the best. So yeah, you take care and all the moms out there, I, I really admire them and they make your podcast great as well. So thanks to, thanks to all you, all of you.

New Speaker (01:11:51):

Thanks, Lisa. [inaudible].