Join us this week as Abby interviews Ash Luna. Abby and Ash have a very important conversation about inclusivity.
If you are a new listener, we would love to hear from you. Please consider leaving us a review on itunes or sending us an email with your suggestions and comments to badassbreastfeedingpodcast@gmail.com
WE HAVE TRANSCRIPTS!! You can also add your email to our list and have episodes sent right to your inbox!
Things we talked about
Who is Ash Luna [4:13]
Ash begins their story [5:38]
Biology and hormones [13:30]
Where breastfeeding fits in [16:11]
Feeling othered [17:35]
Barriers [33:25]
Breaking down barriers for change [48:26]
*This Episode is sponsored by Cake Maternity and Baby K’Tan
Links to information we discussed or episodes you should check out!
IG - @helloashluna
Set up your consultation with Dianne
https://badassbreastfeedingpodcast.com/consultations/
Check out Dianne’s blog here~
https://diannecassidyconsulting.com/2021/01/24/how-to-overcome-breastfeeding
Follow our Podcast~
Here is how you can connect with Dianne and Abby~
Music we use~
Music: "Levels of Greatness" from "We Used to Paint Stars in the Sky (2012)" courtesy of Scott Holmes at freemusicarchive.org/music/Scott Holmes
Join us this week as Abby interviews Ash Luna. Abby and Ash have a very important conversation about inclusivity.
If you are a new listener, we would love to hear from you. Please consider leaving us a review on itunes or sending us an email with your suggestions and comments to badassbreastfeedingpodcast@gmail.com
WE HAVE TRANSCRIPTS!! You can also add your email to our list and have episodes sent right to your inbox!
Things we talked about
Who is Ash Luna [4:13]
Ash begins their story [5:38]
Biology and hormones [13:30]
Where breastfeeding fits in [16:11]
Feeling othered [17:35]
Barriers [33:25]
Breaking down barriers for change [48:26]
*This Episode is sponsored by Cake Maternity and Baby K’Tan
Links to information we discussed or episodes you should check out!
IG - @helloashluna
Set up your consultation with Dianne
https://badassbreastfeedingpodcast.com/consultations/
Check out Dianne’s blog here~
https://diannecassidyconsulting.com/2021/01/24/how-to-overcome-breastfeeding
Follow our Podcast~
Here is how you can connect with Dianne and Abby~
Music we use~
Music: "Levels of Greatness" from "We Used to Paint Stars in the Sky (2012)" courtesy of Scott Holmes at freemusicarchive.org/music/Scott Holmes
Dianne (00:00):
hi, welcome to the Badass Breastfeeding podcast. This is Dianne your lactation consultant
Abby (00:26):
And I'm Abby. The badass breastfeeder. And today's episode is brought to you by Baby K'tan. Baby K'tan
is a baby carrier that allows parents to easily wear it without complicated rapping or buckling. And
today's episode is also brought to you by Cake maternity. Cake Maternity stocks one of the largest
ranges of maternity and nursing bras out there. Um, we'll hear more from our sponsors later, but these
sponsors make this podcast possible. So if you can please head to badassbreastfeedingpodcast.com,
check out our sponsor page and see if you can give these or any of our sponsors, um, your business that
would really be great for them, and it would support the podcast. Um, and while you're there, you can
scroll down and enter your email address, and get episodes sent straight to your inbox. Now Dianne has
our review of the week and hopefully she won't stumble over her words as much as I did.
Dianne (01:19):
This is kind of a special, yeah, it's okay. We're just human. Right? So it doesn't matter. This is a special
review of the week. This actually came to us from somebody's husband partner, who says my wife,
Victoria Filliatreau is a devout listener to your podcast series. When we had our son three years ago, she
found your podcast. Soon after this podcast, along with breastfeeding our son inspired her to change
her profession and become a lactation consultant. We moved from Kentucky to South Carolina with the
hopes that if I made a little more money in a different job, she could focus on making her dream
happen. Not only did she get hired as lactation consultant, when she got the job while seven months
pregnant with our second child, she now works with an amazing team of women. And as my wife says,
she now has her dream of a dream job. The joke always being that she would never even have dreamed
she could have had as good a job as being an LC. My wife finished her education this month will be
sitting for her IBCLC in April. Thanks for you two for your work on this podcast. I know you guys probably
get a lot of inquiries, but we recently found out that my son's teacher had COVID and we had to
quarantine this week, which is most unfortunate as my wife's birthday is on Thursday, January 21st. So it
just passed. She is a bit bummed about it, but if you guys have any time to give her a happy birthday, I
know it would brighten her week a bit. I understand if there's not time for shout outs, either way, thank
you again for all your work and dedication to the health and happiness of all the mothers and babies out
there. So happy birthday, Victoria, we're a little late, but I hope you had a wonderful week anyway. And
congratulations. It takes a lot to like change completely change your career path. And we've had a few
people that have messaged us about that. And I just think it's amazing. So congratulations to you.
Abby (03:05):
Happy birthday, Victoria
Dianne (03:08):
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So that was our review of the week. So thank you very much to this devout partner
who reached out and, um, for his wife and yeah. This week is a really special episode, really special
episode.
Abby (03:26):
It is. Yes. Um, and it's an important conversation that I think we could all use and do better at and be
better allies. And so that's what we're trying to do here. And we have Ash Luna, who you may know as
the, um, creative bad-ass force behind the fourth trimester bodies project. Um, the are the
photographer there behind that project. And, um, we're talking about inclusivity and let's get to it.
Dianne (03:55):
Yeah. Awesome.
Abby (03:57):
Welcome Ash Luna to the bad-ass breastfeeding podcast. I'm so excited to have you here today. I know
you're extremely busy lately. Um, but thank you so much for taking the time to be here.
Ash Luna (04:07):
Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. I am really excited to talk to you in this format.
Abby (04:13):
Great. And you and I have known each other for many years now. We have, yeah, we met, I mean, I
know that, I know that my oldest was a baby when we first met. Um, and he's nine, so it's been a while.
Um, and I have seen, so, and for your, you are what most people might know as the, um, talented force
behind the fourth trimester bodies project.
Ash Luna (04:41):
Yes, that is my, that is my baby. I am the founder photographer of that beautiful little movement.
Abby (04:47):
Yes. And we've had, my family has had the extreme pleasure of being photographed by you and they
hang in our house and it's a very wonderful thing to have. Um, and, but I've watched you, I mean, I've
followed you and your project and you and your personal, you're also very, very, um, open and sharing
about your personal experiences and which I really appreciate because I've learned so much. Um, but
we're here to talk today about inclusivity and this is something that is not just, it seems to me that it's
not just something that, you know, a side project you're interested in. This is something you're living.
Ash Luna (05:26):
It is.
Abby (05:27):
I would love to know. Can you tell us your story or, you know, in as much detail as you're comfortable,
you know, of what what's, what, how you came to this topic or what we're doing today?
Ash Luna (05:38):
Absolutely. Um, so, you know, I think like even just running back to fourth trimester bodies project, it
started because I found myself in a personal situation where there was a need, or there was a gap in the
things that were being talked about, particularly amongst the, the birth and postpartum communities,
which at the time for me was lost Was the fact that the babies die. Um, and so I think that as an artist
and as a writer and as a person who doesn't really have a filter and doesn't know when to shut up
sometimes for better or worse, um, you know, I do, I, I, I, um, just my lived experience is my life
experience and my point of reference with which I think I make art and I connect to other humans in the
world. Um, I'm also the kind of person I'm a Sagittarius if this frames things for anybody. Um, but I'm a
person that feels justice and injustices, like at my core. And since I was a little kid, like, you know, have
been writing wrongs whenever I, I come across them. Um, so I have kind of just lived out loud as cheesy
as that phrase is um, for as long as I can remember. And I think through fourth trimester bodies project
when my work, um, and my art became really public, I for the first time had the opposite personal
experience, I took some perhaps wise, but also harmful advice from a PR person early on to kind of quiet
my personal story on myself because the more vanilla I was, the more palatable my project was to the
most amount of people. Um, and so I didn't talk a lot about who I was and what my life experience was
outside of. Like, you know, the story that I shared within the project, which was very much my
pregnancy and birth and postpartum story, um, for a really long time. And then, you know, life
Happened. Um, we have my personal relationships that I was in at the time, um, ended for very good
reason. Um, and I was free of a lot of things, um, and really just decided, you know, I'm not getting any
younger, I want to be an example for my children of, of authenticity, if nothing else, I want them to be
able to know that like who I am and what I exist as is, is true so that they can hopefully, you know, have
that same experience themselves without ever feeling like they need to put themselves in a box or quiet
themselves down. So, um, through the work of the project and through parenting my kids, um, I just
kind of had this in some ways slow and in some ways really overt, like multilevel coming out experience.
I think, you know, as the parent of a disabled person or a few disabled people actually, um, my eldest is
very neurodiverse. Um, and so we've had to navigate that to my, my middle kiddo is physically disabled
and developmentally disabled. And we've had to, you know, create our space in the world as people
who, um, you know, realize this world is not made for us in those ways. Um, and then Nova that same
middle kid came out to us there about age three as a human. Um, we now know that there are non-
binary trans age, gender. Um, those labels shift a little bit, um, but they, they had this kind of grand
coming out and we really had to catch ourselves up to language and advocacy for them, especially as a
person who, because of their disability interacts with a lot of care providers and a lot of spaces, um,
where people's focus are things other than their identity. And so I think it's easy to kind of pathologize
some things, even if it's gender, um, so that they can focus on something else. And so I learned how to
advocate for them. And through that advocacy realized that, you know, I, myself, I've always known I
was a queer person, um, since I was a very young kid. Um, but I never quite understood what my gender
was or how it fit. I knew that I didn't feel like a girl or a woman. I also know that I very much do not want
to be a man. Um, and nobody had ever really given me permission or understanding to like exist in the
space between, except for Nova my eight year old. Um, and so I kind of had these revelations of self.
And then I think then, you know, especially again existing in a space, um, mostly surrounded by women
and mothers and pregnancy and birth, um, really started to feel the, the scratchiness of not belonging in
that space, which I think just added another personal, you know, layer for me of advocacy, um, and, and
kind of framing inclusivity in a new space because, you know, as we know, not all pregnant people are
women. Um, not all people that feed their babies with their bodies are women. Um, not all people that
give birth are mothers. Um, and so My Personal frame of reference has, um, you know, definitely led the
charge, but it's also connected me with communities that, um, you know, outside of myself, outside
from other queer trans birthing people, um, that, that really connect and intersect with other
communities that are marginalized and oppressed in ways that, um, you know, I, as a, as a person with
privilege, who's educated, who's white, um, very much feel a responsibility for doing what I can in the
spaces I exist in to push the boundaries of inclusivity and give other people voices, um, you know, to
exist in those spaces in a way that is, is more equitable, that is more safe and thus concludes my 17
minute rant.
Abby (11:41):
It was not 17 minutes. It was about seven minutes. And that was perfect. Um, thank you so much for
sharing your story. And, um, it's been, I will say re you know, cause, you know, you said you put it all,
you kind of put thank you for putting it all out there. Um, I'll say that this conversation is something that
I think that this podcast just in, you know, let's start here that, you know, we need a good, healthy dose
of, um, you know, learning and kind of what you were saying. I loved the way you said the spaces in
between, because to me that's what it kind of comes down to right. As we live in this world of man
woman, um, the boy girl, and that's not the reality, that's not really reality at all.
Ash Luna (12:35):
No. Yeah. It's, it's not real. And it's interesting to start, you know, we can have 12 adjacent conversations
I'm sure about, you know, why it is that way, but how many of us exist feeling like, you know, there's
two binary boxes and that relates to everything, right. Not just gender, but you know, I, I fit here. I fit
here and there's not a lot of margins, um, or space for that to vary when, you know, the opposite is
actually true. We all exist on, on spectrums or, um, you know, in more circular ways than we give, give
space for.
Abby (13:16):
Yeah. And even just talking about like the biology of it, you had a post, um, I don't know if it was, it was
recently in the last couple of days where you were talking about estrogen and testosterone.
Ash Luna (13:28):
Yes. Yeah.
Abby (13:30):
Well, you know, females have estrogen and males have testosterone and how that's not accurate at all.
Ash Luna (13:37):
Yeah. It's not. And some people really don't know. I think, I always hope that the way that I advocate
and educate is it is, is not something that's off putting to folks. Um, you know, I, I know a lot about the
things that I know a lot about, but that's been a process, you know, we were all ignorant to XYZ at some
point in time. And, um, there's a meme that I think I share very, very frequently that, you know, says
that it's okay to admit that you were previously speaking from a lesson form space. Um, and I think that
that is, is really applicable to these conversations because, you know, sometimes our brain just, again,
puts things in boxes and, and we assume that, Oh yes, you know, women have estrogen, men have
testosterone. That's how that works. That's how the biology is. Um, and then we learned that that's not
true, you know, that all humans exist with varying levels of those hormones. And, um, there are, you
know, cis-gendered women who have more testosterone than cis-gendered men. Um, but we don't go
around testing everybody's hormones before we decide, you know, where they, where they belong. Um,
we just make these assumptions. So I think sometimes even that basic information is really eyeopening
to people and understanding, you know, the fluidity that is the human existence.
Abby (14:58):
Yeah. Yeah. And so for the, for the, for this audience, this audience is made up of mostly people who are
breastfeeding. Um, and so this conversation is very relevant, um, here in this, in this space. Um, and how
do you, so in your opinion, how, or, you know, from what infer, or from your own experience, we can
say, um, how does breastfeeding kind of intersect with this inclusivity conversation?
Ash Luna (15:24):
Yeah, I think, you know, again, it's something that exists on a spectrum. Um, from my personal
experience, I have fed humans with my body for coming up on a decade now. Um, and I think we, and I,
you know, use the, the very broad we as educators and activists and lactivists and people who, um, you
know, feel strongly about this at some point along the way in our attempt to even, um, you know,
normalize, breastfeeding and, and reduce some of the stigma surrounded, it ended up almost
marginalizing ourselves and marginalized in our communities a little bit more, um, which, which is
unfortunate because I think we need to, to realize that there's all sorts of bodies that lactate and that
feed babies. Um, my personal journey has been from one of considering myself, a breastfeeding mother
to now I'm, uh, a human, a parent who, you know, chest feeds or body feeds, um, my toddler. Um, and
so I think allowing space for that language to vary and, um, just understanding that, you know, nobody's
trying to take anything from your experience, if you are a woman or a mother, um, who feels strongly
and powerful about breastfeeding and normalizing and advocating for breastfeeding. I think that is
awesome and wonderful. Um, but I think it's then also a little bit of a weight that we all carry to
understand that there are other folks in our community, um, who are still marginalized and who still
need access to resources and advocacy, um, and are living a shared experience even though, um, you
know, parts of it may differ.
Abby (17:09):
Yeah. And you had a, um, you also had a post I'm always reading your posts. So whenever I refer to a lot
of these, um, you had, this was a while ago actually, when you talked about feeling othered and, and,
and what I'm saying, if you can't hear it other like the other person, um, you had a post that said you
were, I can't even remember the, the situation you were in, but you were talking about how you were
made to feel othered. And that struck me as like, Oh, okay, this is something that goes on with people
that I care about with, you know, within this community. And this is something that me and Dianne, as,
You know, as people who are sharing breastfeeding information, or as you say, or we can say chest
feeding your body feeding information, is that when we're talking about, you know, there's so much of
this focus of, of mothers breastfeeding and, you know, in that sense we are othering people. Is that
correct?
Ash Luna (18:11):
I think so, and I, this is something I talk about often, so I'm not certain the exact post that you're
referencing, but, you know, I feel like for me, the general context is, is usually that it's, that, you know,
kind of this assumption that you're creating an umbrella space and that I, as a person of a different
gender, who also uses my body for this function, um, fits under that umbrella. But, you know,
communities aren't always willing to, to shift their language or the intention of their spaces to be
inclusive, which does feel a little bit othering or ostracizing. Um, and unfortunately, sometimes pushes
folks, you know, farther into the corners, further into the closet, um, and, and can make it feel like
spaces and supports and communities, um, you know, aren't accessible to us. Um, and something that I
talk about, I do also do like inclusivity trainings for, um, professional folks for corporate spaces, small
businesses, and how not only to update their forward facing information, their company, um, you know,
public facing information, but how to tweak and change their internal policies and, and language to be
more supportive of employees, um, and clients that might not exist in a binary world. And one of the
things that we talk about a lot is that, you know, they'll say, you know, this space is for women and non-
binary people or women and trans people, or, um, and they think that by making those small shifts,
they're being inclusive, right. That that's, that's what it takes. Um, and you know, I always applaud those
intentions because I think that awareness and that desire to, to shift language is really important. Um,
and definitely is a step in the right direction. Um, but unfortunately those actions without a few more
steps end up creating harm, um, you know, in the context of breastfeeding, this might apply a little bit
less because, you know, most people who do choose to feed their babies with their bodies, um, may
have been assigned female at birth. Um, and so, you know, you can argue that we do fit under this
umbrella a little bit more neatly, but a lot of times, you know, in these, these other spaces, um, you
know, by, by including non-binary people are saying that they include transgender people. What they
actually mean is that people that they perceive as women still, um, And that can be really, um, You
know, my partner is also non-binary person. Um, they are however much more masculine presenting.
They are tall. Um, they are broad shoulders, they have facial hair. Um, and so I who am smaller and, um,
you know, more androgynous presenting can show up to a woman's space and be welcomed a lot more
readily, um, than they are under the label of being non-binary. Um, and so I think that's something that
we, we also need to consider is, is what are we saying? And who are we still othering? Um, even
sometimes in our attempts to be inclusive.
Abby (21:23):
Yeah. That's really important. And that's, I think that's what I feel myself doing is I'm trying to shift the
language, but feeling like I need to do more, you know, then shift the language on that. I think shifting
language is a good place to start because that's where maybe you start to create new pathways in your
brain or something, you know, where you can get used to saying they, rather than she, or he, or, you
know, just kind of introducing yourself to this topic because some people, you know, we're, we're still
dealing in a society where some people have never really even heard this conversation, you know,
absolutely. They're not open to it, or, you know, not even to get into the people, weren't open to it, but
some people who are just not even exposed to it. And, you know, the I'll say that my, I have such a love,
hate relationship with social media, but like a lot of my education comes from being on social media and
just reading and following people and just taking the time to see what they're saying about themselves
and their experience.
Ash Luna (22:29):
Absolutely. It's a great space for education. In fact, I just saw my therapist for the first time in like a year
yesterday. Um, and I joked with her about how valuable she is, but, you know, we were talking about
how the past year has been. And I, I joked that, you know, as valuable as you are, and as much as I need
you in my life, sometimes there's these awakenings that happen on social media from other people who
like share my experience or, you know, share my past traumas. Even sometimes they just say something
in such a way that it clicks and you have that aha moment of, you know, wow, that's a piece that I was
missing. Um, so yeah, I too have a love, hate relationship with social media. Um, but the, you know, the,
the labor that is done there, um, the education that is offered up, um, can be really invaluable. Um, and
I, I think it's, it's a medium where a lot of folks, if you're open to listening, you know, share their
personal experience in a way that is really accessible. Um, I'm in school right now for social work, as you
know, um, and I'm taking a gender studies course, which is painful. Um, primarily because even my
professors understanding of the concepts is different than mine, just as a person who's lived a different
experience. Um, but we had to have a conversation after a few folks said some harmful things about,
you know, the, the matters that we were discussing. And I really appreciated how she framed the
conversation, um, and that she acknowledged, you know, a lot of people come from a place where these
concepts are new to you. You know, you've never met a queer person or a trans person or a non binary
person, or you've been raised in a culture or a religion that has taught you that these concepts are
somehow harmful or wrong. Um, and that's okay. You don't necessarily have to change your viewpoint
or your understanding. Um, but the conversations that we are having are about science and they're also
about lived experience. And so, you know, if you approach things with a level of respect, that this is
another humans experience, um, and are willing to just observe and listen that, you know, sometimes
that's enough. Um, and while I would love for all of our society to become more expansive, um, and
remove some of the barriers that exist for, you know, queer and trans people, literally just existing in
our communities. Um, I think we start by, by taking that step backward and doing what my professor
called for, and just, you know, acknowledging that these conversations we're having about, you know,
gender variance and, um, you know, the spectrum even of biological sex, um, those are scientific, but
that like, those are facts. And then when we build on top of them, you know, the experiences of actual
humans, um, whose lives we value it, it starts to become much easier to kind of wrap your head around
these concepts that might initially seem weird or new or scary to folks.
Abby (25:37):
Yeah. Because yeah, because it is, it is. And I think that this is where we get into this, um, to this thing
where people are feeling they're weird. They feel, they feel strange, they feel uncomfortable, or this is
new to me. I don't know what to do. And then we get into a lot of these situations where I think, and I
know happens where it says, well, I don't know what to say. I don't want to say the wrong thing. So I'm
going to say nothing.
Ash Luna (26:02):
And, you know, nobody wants, you know, harmful things to be said, right. You know, we don't want to
hurt one another, but I would rather, you know, 20 people say the wrong thing and we be moved to
have a conversation and a corrective experience, and then try again to do better than have, you know,
those same 20 people not say anything. Um, because that's how we learn. That's how we grow. It's okay
to stumble and mess up along the way. Um, you know, as long as that willingness exists.
Abby (26:37):
For sure. And I love the, the idea of practicing too, is like something that, and I think for me, something
that comes Along with social media is that I read this stuff all the time, but I don't actually like talk about
it that much because it's social media. It's just something that you're reading in your head. Right. I'm
not, so the idea of like, practicing, like with, with my husband, we, her, he has, he works with a couple of
people who are, you know, are coming out in various ways as well. And, um, you know, we were like
practicing this week, like talking and it's amazing how much you just mess up. Yeah. And then we look at
each other and we're like, they like, yeah. Right. They, you know, the practicing helps. Yeah. And it's
something that I've never even would have considered unless I'd like read a meme about it or
something. And I'm like, Oh yeah, like practice, practice saying it, practice doing it. And I think the other
thing too, for me, that I, that I following people too, is like, nobody expects you to be perfect. You're
gonna mess up. And then I think that we have this whole, like this thing where it's like, I'm going to be
like mortified and devastated and ashamed if I mess up. And if somebody has to correct me, but what if
we kind of change the narrative on that of like being corrected is totally fine. Yeah. You know, and just
go, Oh, right. And then, you know, keep going, correct yourself. Keep going.
Ash Luna (28:07):
Absolutely. I'm so glad that you mentioned that because, you know, we encounter that all the time
people do feel in, and they might feel embarrassed and, and that's fine, but you don't need to, you
know, we all make mistakes. Um, and, and what you just said is, is so important, you know, correct
yourself and move on. Sometimes I think people do feel that embarrassment or, you know, they feel
bad. And so suddenly it becomes about their feelings and you end up having this whole side
conversation about how bad they feel for mis-gendering you, um, which ultimately feels much worse
than the fact that they've mis-gendered you. Um, and yeah, just say, Oh, I'm sorry. They move right
along.
Abby (28:46):
Right. Absolutely. Don't turn it into this. Like, Oh my God, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. You know, and then
you're like, now the other person has to like, stop what they're doing and comfort you. We don't need
to give that responsibility to anybody just correct yourself and move on. It's okay.
Ash Luna (29:06):
Absolutely. And I think, you know, so, so rarely in our culture, we, we have opportunities to just take
simple ownership of things. Um, and I think that's when one of the things that these kinds of exercises
really highlight for me is that you can own something apologize and move right along. You know,
nobody's harboring, Oh gosh. On Tuesday at 3:00 PM, Abby called me She, instead of they, and gosh, I'm
just, we're going to have to talk about that. No, it's fine.
Abby (29:32):
Just keep on going. Right. And trust and trust also that if you really did actually hurt somebody's feelings
that you weren't aware and you didn't apologize or something that, that if this is somebody, you know,
a reasonable person, which you know, most of us are, um, they'll bring it up. Absolutely. You know what
I'm saying? Hey, you know, I, you know, I noticed the other, you know, I noticed earlier that you said
this, or, you know, I dunno, you know, you'd sort of, we'll just bring it up and we can talk about these
things and we can move on. You're right. No, one's going to sit at home like, you know, stewing in anger
at you.
Abby (30:10):
We are talking to Ash Luna, and now we are going to take a short break to hear from our sponsors. And
we'll be right back today's episode is brought to you by Baby K'tan. Baby K'tan, baby carrier offers an
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breastfeeding resources, all of our other episodes and information about scheduling your very own one-
on-one online lactation consultation with Dianne. And now we're going to get back to our interview with
the talented and badass Ash Luna.
Abby (33:03):
but, but we're talking a lot about to me, you know, this is a lot about like, you know, mis-gendering and
correcting language, which is super important, but you were talking earlier, you mentioned, um, like just
barriers, like barriers within, you know, the education system and the medical system and all of these,
um, places that you come into contact with. W what, like, can you give us some examples of the things
that you've run into or things that have happened, or like, you know, the systemic things that, that exist
that are barriers for inclusivity?
Ash Luna (33:36):
Sure. Um, again, framing things from personal experience. Cause I think that is, you know, where I'm
most comfortable speaking from. Um, you know, we see this even, you know, with Nova, with my kiddo,
um, you know, we'll go to the ER and they sometimes look very usually look pretty androgynous,
actually Nova has short hair. Um, it's usually a fun color, um, really likes to wear sparkly dresses, but you
know, if you're in the ER, you're in a gown, everybody kind of looks the same. Um, we started noticing,
you know, and, and this is probably the first time that my eyes were personally opened to this. We
started noticing how differently they were treated and how differently their pain was evaluated based
on what gender, the resident or the nurse who came in to initially speak with them, um, based on what
gender they were assumed to be. Um, if they were kind of coated boy, it was a lot of, Oh, buddy, you're
so brave, you're so strong. You know, we'll get this taken, right. You know, we'll get this taken care of
right away. And if they were coded as girl, it was kind of like this, Oh, poor pitiful you, this is really sad
sort of conversation. And, you know, to be going through this with a three, four, five, six, seven now
eight year olds, you know, person is just, wild. you know, and these are doctors who, who we have great
trust in, you know, we, we use a, a world renowned children's hospital. They are top-notch, we love
them. But, you know, we really started noticing how pervasive this is even in children. So obviously this
is where it starts. Um, and then, you know, you, you look at grownups and the health care systems that
we deal with. And, um, you know, for me as a person who up until a few years ago was still in the part of
my life where I was growing and birthing humans, finding care, um, you know, for those systems of your
body, OB GYN, midwifery support, um, as a non cis-gendered person is really hard because there's a lot
of biases and a lot of coded language. Um, and just a lot of, you know, normalization and a lot of
practices, um, that ends up being harmful, you know, practices just assume, Oh, we're, you know, we're
looking at uteruses all day. 100% of our patients of our clients are women. We don't need to try any
harder. Um, and that's never been the reality, you know, but also now I think as people are feeling more
comfortable, um, societaly, you know, being out in community with one another, um, it's even more
important for practices to have open language because it prevents people from seeking care that they
really need.Um, you know, it, it creates disparities in the queer and trans community overall, um, that
leads to shorter lifespans because folks just don't feel comfortable accessing care. Um, you know, even
if you are a transgender person that has medically transitioned, you know, sometimes you'll get a
hospital band that has the wrong sex marker on it, based on, you know, your genitals, not anything else.
Um, and, and the triggers that come with that can be so harmful that, you know, folks, um, you know,
avoid getting medical care. And then once you're in the medical system, you know, there are
gatekeeping and barriers and abuses that that happen, um, that are, that are hard to deal with. Um, you
know, as a pregnant and birthing person for me, I was able to find a really supportive midwifery practice
where we live, um, who addressed me as a non binary person who used my pronouns, who made
mistakes, but, you know, corrected them and held them. Um, but when I got to a point in my pregnancy
with my last kiddo, where we realized it was going to be safe for us to try birthing at home, um, you
know, for a lot of reasons that was an easy choice for us, but I think as it relates to my partner's gender
and my gender, um, and also the fact that we've chosen not to assign a gender to this baby, um, that felt
like a much safer choice, you know, not having to navigate a hospital system nurses, doctors that we
hadn't been able to meet before. Um, you know, felt like a much safer choice and there's a lot of
privilege and us being able to make that choice that a lot of folks don't have. Um, I was actually just
talking with a young trans person this morning who wants to have kids in the future and knows that it's
a couple of years off, but is really stressed out right now about, um, their stealth, which means that, you
know, they present as a man in most of their life. And people don't actually know that they're trans. Um,
but knowing that they want to, to get pregnant and carry and birth a baby, um, you know, even years
down the road is like creating some serious mental health struggles for them right now, because they
know what they're up against. Um, and so these are all little things that, you know, shifts in language
can, um, you know, just, just break down barriers for, and, you know, I haven't even gotten to the
breastfeeding part of the journey, but, you know, fight finding, um, IBCLCs and breastfeeding support
groups and lactation resources, um, that are available to people that aren't cis-gendered women who
are lactating and feeding their babies is really, really hard. Um, you know, again, thank goodness for
social media, where there are more vocal, um, you know, people doing the work to connect and support
people in these ways. But if you're trying to find those resources in your local community, and, you
know, we live in Chicago, we live in a great big city. Um, you know, even here finding those resources.
And if you can find them finding ones that are accessible, affordable, um, you know, are, are really,
really hard. And these affect not only the outcomes for trans people and their families, but their children
and, and it starts to become this really big generational, you know, cyclical problem that I think we're
really just starting to talk about.
Abby (39:49):
Yes, I feel, yeah, this does, it feels like, uh, yeah, it feels like the conversation is taking off and I hope that
it continues. Yeah. Um, but you, you mentioned mental health. And I think that that is a huge thing to
talk about is that this is not a, this is not a situation where, you know, we just want to get it right,
because we don't want to feel bad about getting it wrong. This is something that, you know, is, you
know, this is tied to people's identities. Um, this is tied to, you know, when, when, you know, we're
coming across these barriers, when people are suffering through these things, this has dire
consequences to people's mental health.
Ash Luna (40:28):
It really does. And, you know, I think that the medical conversation and this conversation at a whole,
like, you know, we haven't even scratched the surface on, you know, how these disparities are
compounded for, um, you know, considering black and Brown people's lives, right? Like adding racial
injustices into this conversation, you know, adds a whole other spectrum of, of harm and oppression
and marginalization. Um, but yeah, it's not, it's not just about, you know, respectability or, um, you
know, making ticking the boxes on a form easier. It really is about people's lived experience. Um, and
one of the best examples that I like to give when we're talking about this is, you know, imagine existing
in the world as a straight white man. Like you're the default. Um, you know, I have conversations with
straight white men in corporate positions, um, pretty regularly. And when I asked them to think about
their identity, I would say over 90% of them are dumbfounded because to them, they don't have an
identity because they're, they're the default, you know, their formula for what this world has made for.
And when I ask them to consider, you know, how their race, how their gender, how their sex, how their
sexual orientation affects their lives, it's sometimes, you know, and, and these are 50, 60 year old men.
It's sometimes the first time that they've ever had to consider that, um, you know, where as, when you
take the experience of, again, I'm going to use myself as an example. And again, I'm, I'm white, I'm able-
bodied, I exist with a lot of privilege, but, um, you know, a trans non binary person, and you examine the
identities that I hold. And you add queerness to the mix. You add my family's disability status to the mix.
You add the fact that I have a blended, multiracial family to the mix. Um, and when you blend these
identities together, you just start layering on, you know, barriers and, and differences in existence. And
you start to, you know, kind of see this ladder of, of how we all have to exist, um, in our society. And so I
think it's really important for people to consider their identities and where they are, um, as it relates to
other people, um, in something I think at this point of the conversation, I always like to add, because I
know that there are super wonderful well-intentioned, um, folks out there who feel when we have
these conversations, that something is being taken from them. Um, you know, I want to space for
women. I want a space for breastfeeding mothers. You know, I want a space where I feel safe. Why are
you trying to take that from me? Um, and I would really ask folks to pause at that point and
acknowledge that nobody is trying to take something from you. You know, first of all, you have so much,
um, but nobody wants to take that from you. Other people just want their actual existence in their
identity or identities to be allowed to exist in the same ways that you take for granted. Um, and I think
when you really start to differentiate that, um, a lot of folks are able to open their eyes and understand
in a different way, why all of this is, is important.
Abby (43:53):
Yeah. I mean, it's a similar, you know, we, you know, we do a lot on the podcast for like black
breastfeeding week. And, you know, we, we do have those conversations about what you were saying,
like how the black and Brown experience kind of intersects with this. And I, that's the same thing that
comes up in that conversation, you know, in all of these conversations is that people feel like something
is being taken from them, you know, and somehow giving somebody empowerment and resources takes
resources away from white people, which has never happened. You know, there's never been a lack of
resource well, or there's lack of resources all across the board. Of course, you know, when you speak
specifically about breastfeeding, um, but you know, providing space for other people, there's enough to
go around. Yeah. I was trying to take anything from anybody. I mean, I'm just repeating what you said. I
wholeheartedly agree. I think it's, I think that is so important is that, you know, if you find yourself
feeling sort of defensive or protective of the space or whatever, like really you got to stop and wonder
what is going on, what's going on with you with that feeling.
Ash Luna (45:00):
Exactly. And even if it takes, you know, picking somebody else's identity and really breaking down, you
know, the levels of their existence to understand, do that again, practice, you know, practice this stuff,
spend the time with yourself, examining your own biases and you know, why you feel the way that you
do. Um, because most of us, I think I would hope all of us, but definitely most of us, you know, want to
grow and want to exist. Um, you know, in a place that is more equitable and you know, where other
folks right To existence mirrors that of our own.
Abby (45:36):
Right. And my husband, my husband was talking yesterday and you know what I always say, my
husband. And would it be more, would I, would I, would it be more, um, inclusive for me to say partner,
Ash Luna (45:48):
You could, but also if that's your identity term, if that's your relationship and that's what feels good too,
that's totally valid. Um, and I'm glad that you asked that because some folks actually feel the opposite
that, you know, if you are in a cis- hetero relationship and you use the word partner or spouse, um, you
know, that maybe that's not the best choice. I don't feel that way. I feel like that's a little bit gatekeeper.
Um, but it's, it's up to you, you know, I say spouse or partner, because both my partner and I are non
binary people. Um, but yeah, there's nothing wrong with husband or wife, if that's the label that feels
good for you.
Abby (46:25):
Okay. Well, I was having a conversation with him last night and he was saying that, and he was reading
this whole big Twitter thread that he was like, he was really enjoying. It was about like, um, you know,
gender affirming language and stuff like that. And he was saying like, you know, I never really thought
about that perspective of it is like, you know, you, we go around, you know, cis-gendered white people, I
think, you know, we'll go around. Like, I don't want to hurt your feelings, let me get this right. So I'm not
hurting people's feelings, but even that narrative could change too. Like I want to be affirming to people,
you know, I want to, I don't know. I don't want to just not hurt your feelings. I want to do it right.
Because I want to affirm, you know, your identity. Yeah, go ahead.
Ash Luna (47:13):
I think that's a really huge and really important shift to make too. Um, because you're right. You know,
just not offending somebody and actually being affirming and actually being inclusive is, you know,
those are exist on their own. Um, and I, I think that actually being affirming, um, is a much better goal to
have, but not something that most folks even consider.
Abby (47:40):
Right. Right. Um, and you were, we were talking about, um, the breastfeeding community, um, and the,
you know, the resources and even here in Chicago, in this big city, how difficult it is to find, um, these
resources and I, you know, how, how, how do we get, I mean, this is, I'm asking you this question, like,
you can change it all with us, you know, like a wand or something, but, you know, just, just as like a
conversation point, like how do we like get better at this? Like, how are we going to, how do we further
these conversations? How do we push into these barriers, you know, to, to open these spaces? Do you
know what I mean?
Ash Luna (48:26):
I do know what you mean, and it is. Yeah. I mean, it's something that, you know, usually if I can be super
candid, my response to that question is burn it all down and start over. That's what it takes. But those
same little steps that we talked about previously kind of taking in your personal life and your online
spaces of shifting your language a little bit, opening your eyes to what other needs exist in your
community. Um, I think you start there and you grow and it's not perfect. You know, when you set the
intention and, and start moving, you know, nothing is perfect at the start. There's always growing pains.
Um, you know, and unfortunately, sometimes as you grow as space to be more accessible and inclusive
and affirming to, you know, other populations, some of your base population, doesn't always stick
through it with you, which is unfortunate. Um, but I think being willing to make those changes in
language and intention, um, is where you start. And then I think the needs of the community is that, you
know, you are then accessing, make themselves known. Um, and it is an ongoing process as you know,
existing, as humans always is. Um, but being open and setting those attentions from the start, I think is,
is where you get the ball rolling.
Abby (49:53):
Yeah. And we have, you know, again, I'm talking a lot about breastfeeding, obviously, because this is the
podcast that we're on. Um, we have, um, we have, August is world. There's so many names like national
breast or breastfeeding awareness month. August is breastfeeding awareness month. And then the first
week is world breastfeeding week. The second week is native breastfeeding week. And the last week is
black breastfeeding week. And we've got this third week in there. And I think like, because I do believe
I've learned so much those weeks, You know, about with the, with the attention and the, Um, the
information That comes out and just highlighting those, um, groups of people in the, you know, the
barriers and the traditions and stuff of breastfeeding that, that exists for those communities. I Feel like
this fits right in here for that third week,
Ash Luna (50:49):
I would love to see that in my lifetime,
Abby (50:53):
who do, who do we tell? Who's the mayor of August? What are we talking when we talk to you about
that? Because it just seems so perfect. Like this is a community that needs This, you know, what's
happening In this month. I feel like this is a community that's so much needs this highlight This week of
awareness, you know, whatever you want to call it. Yeah.
Ash Luna (51:18):
I think the awareness, the visibility, the education, all of the opportunities that are provided by the
structure of that month and the weeks within it is so important. And I think, you know, most folks that
exist outside of the binary, you know, in birthing and breastfeeding and not are willing to use our
experience to educate others. I always caution folks that, um, you know, existing as a trans person
doesn't mean that you're an educational platform. In fact, I think I shared a meme yesterday that was
said something about, you know, a trans person sneezes and suddenly you're an activist. You know, I
think that a lot of people, especially those of us that exists very openly and very out and very loudly in
our communities. You know, that's our signal to you that you can ask questions that if you don't
understand something, you know, let's talk about it. Um, and so I think the opportunity is like not only
to expand resources for people that are chest feeding and body feeding, um, you know, outside of the
more traditional breastfeeding world, but for those who are to be able to, to look at it in a way that is
safe, um, And, and Kind of buffers, you know, harm that could otherwise exist to educate themselves,
um, and, and feel less frightened. I hate to use that word, but I often feel like we other people because
we're scared of what including them would mean. Um, and so I think like the, the mutual benefit of, of
calling that in and making that happen would be enormous.
Abby (52:55):
Well, I, I would love to do that. Um, so you, you do, you're saying that you do the trainings and, Um, you
Know, you have this conversation a lot, you do all, you know, you're very active in this, in this area and I
am not. So I'm asking all these questions, I'm kind of directing this conversation, but what, what have I
missed? What do you, what is some information that you feel is really important to put out there, you
know, when it comes to this conversation that, that I'm Just not getting to?
Ash Luna (53:25):
Yeah. I Honestly think you've done a really good job. Um, and I think that having these organic
conversations as you and I have had right now is, is where you start, you know, you've touched on, on
little elements throughout practicing, you know, um, I mentioned earlier, really just being open to other
people's experience, if you don't understand something, you know, look into the science, find, lived,
experiences that back it up. Um, I think moving to a place of not only just being open and accepting and
affirming, um, but shifting your own lens in word and being critical of, you know, where you previously
came from is a really important part of growth that a lot of us, particularly Americans, I think miss, um,
because that, isn't something that our culture appreciates generally. It's not something we're taught in
our families frequently. It's not something that, you know, our school systems prioritize. Um, but when
we start looking at spaces that are equitable and are inclusive, it, you know, it, it does require us to, to
personally grow and personally let go of something. So, um, I think we touched on some really great
powerful stuff. And, and I think that's the only suggestion that I would have to add is, is layer all of this
external work of listening and watching and practicing, um, you know, make sure that you're also
looking inward and, and seeing what needs to move around a little bit there.
Abby (54:57):
Yeah, that's great. Um, and like I said, you know, you have so S you know, been so, you know, open and
put yourself out there. Um, that really, most of what I've learned around this conversation has come
from you. So thank you so much. And I know from personal experience that putting yourself out there
off and on social media comes with very harsh consequences, which I know that you deal with. And I
really want you to know that, that you are, you know, you are making the change that I, that you intend
to make, you are making it. Thank you.
Ash Luna (55:32):
Thank you. I appreciate that. Um, yeah, it's not always safe. Um, and, and I also kind of want to explicitly
say that while I do put myself out there and I am so grateful for friends and community, you know, that,
that here's me and my experiences and those of my family and learns from it that, you know, I also can't
speak for everybody. And there are people whose experiences add to mine. There are people who come
from different perspectives and viewpoints. So, you know, also be aware of that as you're learning and
growing in these, these spaces. And, um, you know, there's always nuance there, there always is. So,
um, but yeah, I appreciate that. And it's nice to know, especially on those hard days when, um, things
don't feel safe, safer, you know, something that's, that's tricky that, you know, there's hopefully more
good that's coming out of living our lives this way, then it's a not.
Abby (56:23):
Yeah. So, and for people who are listening, where are the spaces where they can come and follow along
with your journey and kind of continue on this path? Yeah, absolutely. Um, my personal website, which
is undergoing an overhaul right now is just my name, ashluna.com. And then on social media, um,
primarily Instagram, you can find my personal account, which is open to the public @helloAshLuna. And
then, um, we've talked about fourth trimester bodies project. So that account is, uh, number four, so
4th tri bodies, um, on Instagram, Twitter, that sort of thing. And then I also run an account there, um,
with a friend and ally of mine, um, that stops entering motherhood. That's adjacent bodies as well.
Okay. That's a, yeah, that's a lovely account as well. Um, we, so we'll put all of this stuff on
badassbreastfeedingpodcast.com. If you weren't able to take notes fast enough, we'll put all the links on
there so that you can follow along. Um, and I just want to thank you so much for being here. Um, this is
a really wonderful conversation and maybe you'll come back and have more conversations with us.
Ash Luna (57:39):
Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me Abby, and I would love to come back and chat more anytime.
Speaker 1 (57:58):